Living with ADHD in InfoSec with Klaus Agnoletti

Joseph Carson:

Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the 401 Access Denied, brought to you by Delinea. My name is Joe Carson, Chief Security Scientist and Advisory CISO. And it's a pleasure to be here with you today and always excited to bring really educational topics and sometimes very important topics and amazing guest to share their stories. And today I'm joined with another amazing guest on the episode. And brought with you, I've got Klaus on the episode today. So Klaus, do you want to give a little background about who you are, give the audience a little bit of what you do, some of the fun things about yourself?

Klaus Agnoletti:

Yeah, sure. My name is Klaus Agnoletti. I live in Copenhagen, Denmark. I've been involved with the community for a lot of years. I've been a infosec professional for almost 20 years, and at some point I realized that what I really, really loved about being in the industry was all the community stuff. And so I tried to work with that as a real job, being a marketer a little bit. And then after that I went freelance. I'm interested in a lot of things that goes with the topic we are talking about today that I never managed to become really, really specialized in anything. And then yeah. So now, I'm... What do we call? A freelance infosec professional because then I can get to choose what I can do.

Joseph Carson:

Absolutely. That's one of the great things. I mean, this has a very diverse, very amazing community. Sometimes it can be a bit harsh, especially in social, there is that harsh reality on the social side of things. But when people come together, I always feel so many welcomed, open. People will share their experiences, which is always great. And you have an experience to share with the audience, something that you've been having to deal with. And many others in the industry also have very similar, maybe different impacts of lives. But if you want to share what are the things that you've been doing talks on and what are the things that you found out about yourself recently.

Klaus Agnoletti:

Yeah. This last month, I've been doing a talk at various conferences that's called Living with ADHD in Infosec because that's what we're talking about. That's I guess neuro diversity and ADHD in particularity. And I usually say that there is an over representation of neuro diversity in IT and in IT security because one of the things that at least some ADHDers, not me, but some are good at, that's the whole zooming in on a very particular thing and then being really, really good at that or zooming in on a particular incident and just keep on investigating that until you haven't eaten for days because you are so focused on that. That's the hyper focused thing that some ADHDer do. So I mean, you could say that all the good parts or all the, what do you want to say, the upsides, particular upsides of the diagnosis, those are actually advantages in many of the jobs in our line of business. So in that way, yeah, there's no representation, definitely.

Joseph Carson:

Absolutely. And I mean, I've had previous guests who've also shared their story and I've had others that they're also in different areas where even autism as well has been used in the industry. People who have problems with even getting talking, socializing skills as well. There's also been some people find that challenging and this industry does have the ability that no matter what type of, let's say diagnosis they might have, that there's always an area to work in to contribute and to add and to provide that knowledge and value that everyone has. You got diagnosed quite late, I believe.

Klaus Agnoletti:

Yeah, I did. I did because it's in a way a weird story because when I was young, I took my education as many people and that wasn't really a problem. And then as I grew older, I just found it harder and harder to concentrate and I had no idea what was wrong and it just became worse and worse. And then for some reason, I'm not really sure why, or then I went to the doctor and asked him, "Well, can I have ADHD?" And then he presented me to this test called ASRS made by WHO where there are like 20 things. That is 20 traits, 20 traits that are normal human traits. Nothing particular about them, but it's more in the degree you have them, than the thought of-

Joseph Carson:

Absolutely. There's the skill of the impact it has.

Klaus Agnoletti:

Then when I saw that, it was really weird because a lot of the things didn't necessarily have anything to do with ADHD, but it's something like, how good are you at finishing a task, for instance, what does that have to do with anything? Well, it turns out it has a lot of things to do with something because many people who has ADHD, they are not so interested in finishing things they are interested in... That goes for me in particular, I like getting ideas. I like to do new things. I don't like to do the same thing over and over because that's just boring. And that's some of the issues I've been having in my career are finding it hard and harder to keep a job. And what has always been my problem is that that's the concentration. And it turns out that when you are not really good at concentrating and you end up in a job where concentration is important, then you're not the most efficient worker. And also over time it gets a little bit boring doing the same.

Joseph Carson:

Yeah. And I think it comes down to a lot of times of how things are measured really that sell to me. And you do find there's different parts of our industry where jobs might be time-based and that could be... But if you're getting into where it's basically understanding and putting it into sometimes awareness or workshops and stuff, then they can be very different. Whether it might be more delivery where it's not focused around the time side of things, but just focused around more of the activity itself.

Klaus Agnoletti:

And I think it has become evident both during Covid and also after Covid, during Covid because that's where, sorry, a lot of companies were shut down and everybody had to work from home. And some people find out that they were accidentally doing very, very well with that and then being forced back to work and they were like, "Why do I have to be here? I actually have to talk to people again." One of the things during Covid, so many people were talking about that they never got to see anyone. And I was like, "This is so nice. I don't have to talk to anyone. It's really, really fantastic."

Joseph Carson:

And for me, this is actually one of the reasons why the whole podcast started was I am very... Personally, I like to network, I like to talk to people, I like to share stories and experiences. And when covid started, ultimately one of the reasons why the podcast was actually introduced.

Klaus Agnoletti:

But it's complex. I do like to talk to people, I mean besides Dublin, I did my talk, I talked to people, then I became very tired to an app and then I was ready again.

Joseph Carson:

Sometimes what is understanding, so how you can deal with it or what things you can do to change in order to make it much easier. So when you were diagnosed, what was the realization or what were you thinking about or did it come to realization that this is actually how it's impacted your life for a long time and getting diagnosed late? Because I also had, I don't have ADHD, I have dyslexia. And I wasn't actually understood until way late in my later university years when I started realizing that I had to find a way to deal with it because I do a lot writing and it comes across, but it means that for me, I do have to sometimes read my stuff multiple times and check and verify where I make the mistakes, where I switch words and letters around. So you start understanding about what things you can do in order to change the way you've done things in the past to deal with that situation. How did you deal with it and what things did you seek for help or did you find others who are in a similar situation?

Klaus Agnoletti:

Around the time I was diagnosed, I had a little bit of an existential crisis because I have a car like many do, and I found myself getting distracted and just not seeing things right in front of me. And it was becoming more... I was about to think that, "Well, maybe this is it. Maybe I'm selling my car and maybe I'm not doing this anymore because I just wouldn't be able to live with killing someone or hurting someone bad." And then I got diagnosed and one of the... It was a little bit strange in the sense that the psychiatrist I was referred to said that he had his doubts, whether it was bad enough so to speak, but he came to the conclusion that it meant a lot to me.

So we figured out that, well, let's try with medication. And that's the one thing who has helped the most, to begin with. Because it's really weird because my body is low on dopamine, so it takes a lot for me to get excited about something that's a common trait for some. And what the medicine does is that it's list egg amphetamine, so it is not exactly amphetamine, but it gives my brain a kick in the butt and that's what it needs because it's slow. If I'm un medicated, then I'm like 80% effective or something like that. It is weird to think about that that was my default setting and I didn't realize that I didn't work well enough so to speak.

Joseph Carson:

What changes did you make yourself? Did you change sometimes maybe even how long you spend in something or when you work in things, sometimes people have a certain cycle that they're most optimum and not, is there anything that you find that they work better for you in certain tasks or certain length of doing things?

Klaus Agnoletti:

It held in one important way and that is that it was easier for me to concentrate. And then I've had the medicine for... I took it right from the beginning, so like three, four years and I've trying a little bit of different thing with dosages. I just recently upped my doses a little bit and that has really made a huge impact because then I can concentrate better because the thing is with ADHD, and that's also what the reason why I went to the doctor to begin with.

It becomes worse, so to speak over time, in that it gets harder, harder to concentrate over time. So it's perfectly normal, I guess to adjust medication. And also that takes a little bit of time. Luckily there aren't many downsides, B effects to it. There are a number of people that has the same diagnosis that the medicine is good, but there are so many side effects that they can't, can't really do anyway.

Joseph Carson:

The benefits outweigh... All the negatives outweigh the benefits in some cases.

Klaus Agnoletti:

And also medication, it doesn't level it out.

Joseph Carson:

Of course.

Klaus Agnoletti:

But it makes my brain work better along with... I'm not sure what it's called. There is an organization, I guess it's called, an Indian organization that's called The Art of Living. And it's weird in the sense that when you look at them, they're a little bit like a cult, but they have a Danish branch or at least a Danish branch that does the technique that this guru invented and it's breathing exercises that you... I really don't know how it works, but I talked to a guy who had done it some years ago and he had a little bit of ADHDC undiagnosed, and he said when he did those exercises, his brain was empty. And that's also one of the things that the brain is always hammering on about something that's more or less relevant. And when I do those exercises, it just the silence and it's fantastic.

Joseph Carson:

There's a fantastic book that I read, it must've been when it was last year, early last year, which is called Breathe, which is all about the impact of breathing exercises. And actually there's a whole technique into it because how long breathing through your mouth or your nose will impact how much oxygen you get to your brain. And there's exercises. So even from reading that book, one of the things I do is when I'm actually doing my walks to the office and back is I try to do more of the breathing through my nose as much as possible and also holding it as much as possible. So it also calms you down. It also is good for your energy levels as well. It makes you get more relaxed also. So breathing does have a massive impact in your life if you learn the exercises, even doing it even just a couple of times or even just once a day can actually have a big impact to you.

Klaus Agnoletti:

And the funny thing with this is that, well, I went on on weekend course. Went three days in a row, there was indication or they were teaching us about how to do exercise and talking a little bit how to breathe because when I'm doing the exercise, I'm doing it in different ways. There is an Indian, I guess it's related to yoga. A breathing method called Ujjayi where you do this breathing, but like that. And I have no idea why I'm going to do that, but that's what the guy says. So that's what I do. And they said that during the course that it was good, and again, I have no idea why or how or whatever. And also doing the, it's about bringing in a rhythm that's part of it.

Joseph Carson:

Correct. The timing's important. You're Absolutely right.

Klaus Agnoletti:

It's about counting and timing and timing and counting and in and out in a special way. And it also impacts the rest of the day, the way you do your breathing in general, I'm not terribly aware of how it affects me, but I guess it do. And-

Joseph Carson:

There's a couple of, when I was in the past year, especially during Covid when basically many of us were alone for long periods of time by ourselves either with family or you're spending those times working alone. And there's a couple of significant things I took at the time and one was reading the book Breathe, which was fantastic. I'll definitely make sure for the audience to get it in show notes.

Another one that I read at the time was also Why We Sleep, which is also related to breathe. It was also about making sure you get enough proper rest that you, even the point where having afternoon naps or daytime naps, power naps, you sometimes refer to them as power naps to make a massive difference. I even took one today because for me it's a long working day. So for me to make sure that I have enough energy to make sure that I get to the end a par up makes a massive difference.

It just takes the mind away and breathing and sometimes even yoga or sometimes even play a certain white noise in the background just to put me... People take my mind off things. So that why we sleep was it was an important difference to the even point where I actually measure it much more and try to understand about am I getting enough in the nighttime or do I need to find some time also to reenergize. Have you found in additional to breathing, is there anything that you've done around even the sleeping side of things to make sure that you're getting enough rest?

Klaus Agnoletti:

No, because ADHD is two things. It's attention deficit and it's hyperactivity and you have both. And you going to have one of them. Back in the day when you only have attention deficit visit then back in the day, and also to a degree here in Denmark, but not globally in the US it's called ADD.

Joseph Carson:

Okay, yes.

Klaus Agnoletti:

But the way they've categorized in the US is that they're calling everything ADHD because it's the same thing. It's just the symptoms that are different. And I know a couple of guys, people who have ADHD with H with hyperactivity, and many of them have... One of my friends, he drinks chamomile every evening just to calm me down or calm him down, but I sleep like a baby. I've always done that. I'm really good at falling asleep and then I can wake up a little bit during the night and then fall asleep again, but I can always fall asleep. I can fall asleep extremely fast. So in that way it's atypical and for some weird reason, I never ever, well, almost never can remember anything of my dreams. That is so weird. But that's just-

Joseph Carson:

Yeah, I think when I was reading the book about the sleeping is that there's a certain... Also, the process before you sleep is that it's about making the preparations and also how you sleep as well can also make a big difference to whether you dream or not. These different sleep, when you're in an REM, that's where you tend to have dreams, if you're bypassing that and just going straight to deep sleep or light sleep, then you tend to not dream a lot. So there's a process that it's in there. So I definitely highly recommend taking a look at if you haven't read it, it's definitely a very intriguing, it definitely helped get me more balance in my and understanding of things. We spent a third of our life sleeping, so that's an important part of our life.

Klaus Agnoletti:

Definitely. I just had a theory that maybe I was doing the REM sleep, but I just somehow forgot it.

Joseph Carson:

So definitely be something. One of the things that... Did you find other people that you can relate with? There's other people that you've contacted or a community or group that you can share?

Klaus Agnoletti:

Here in Denmark there is, and also in other countries, there is ADHD interest groups or whatever you want to call it, volunteer group, nonprofit groups that does education. They have a knowledge bank and the coping strategies and stuff like that. And also they write a bit about a diagnosis, how you're getting diagnosed in different parts of your life and all that. And where I live, they have this networking cafes or whatever you want to call it, every now and then where I meet other adult with ADHD. And it's really, it's striking how different people's symptoms are because last time I was there, there were a bunch of people who were talking a lot about how they handled their temper and I don't have any temper at all. So that's just, well-

Joseph Carson:

See the difference.

Klaus Agnoletti:

... that's me. But I understand that can be hard. If you are hard tempered or have a big temper, then it can be hard to control it because stupid and all that. But again, I've never tried that, so I don't know how it is.

Joseph Carson:

Okay. How has it changed your work life? I mean, what things... Have you find something that interests you more afterwards or have you changed some of the theories that you're working in?

Klaus Agnoletti:

I would say after I got diagnosed, I read a lot about it. I educated myself and then I tried to somehow get to know myself better in these ways. I don't really know exactly know how you do that, but I guess, yeah, I guess you do that by studying.

Joseph Carson:

Yeah, sometimes finding out once you realize, it's always good to get to understand some of the details,

Klaus Agnoletti:

But to me it's very much about... Getting the diagnosis made me understand so much more. For example, the first job I had was with Deloitte here in Denmark, and when I had been in the office for six months or so, they moved into the new fancy steel glass building where back then it still is a little bit open office space all everywhere. And I just pretty fast realized that I couldn't do that. It didn't work. I was just too prone to any noise visually or auditive. I just couldn't concentrate

Joseph Carson:

Even I had the same, I end up... Had my own office for a long time and a lot of, my work is very focused. I had to pay attention writing and research, and I also at one point had moved to an open office. I found that the noise, even though they do a lot to try and do the ambiance and the walls and stuff to suck up the noise, but any noise distracted me. That's why I still, today I do a lot of my work with headsets on just to try and make sure that any of the noise that I try to filter it out because it becomes a distraction for me, and that's something that I use.

I just trying to find a way to deal with it. So one of the things, you do the talk and you've done it a couple of conferences and you've got some conferences you're talking at. What's the main element? What's the consensus of the talk that you do and what do you want others to learn from it? Maybe there's people in the audience who might relate and might find that they are in a similar situation where they're in their career and they're finding that I've got similar symptoms or similar things that I'm finding.

Klaus Agnoletti:

Yeah, I would say that the message, the overall message is that it's okay to have ADHD. And the reason why I started doing it was really basically just to talk, tell people about ADHD and share my story and all that. And I come to realize that to many people, it's just great to have a role model. I don't see myself as role model, but some people do.

And also this weird thing happens when you stand on up on a stage and you tell people pretty confidential stuff, I would say. Then people come to you afterwards and they feel they know you and then they pour their heart out and they're telling you stuff that maybe their spouse doesn't even know that. And that's happened a few times and that takes a little getting used to, I would say.

Joseph Carson:

Absolutely. I think one of the important things that you're bringing out is that, I mean, one of the things I grew up in Belfast and Belfast was a place where you never shared anything. You kept everything inside. In order to be a man, you had to keep it all inside and never let it out. And over the years, it's important to be able to open up and share because it takes the weight off a lot of people.

And that I think there's this emphasis sometimes on people going to see psychologists that it's a bad thing, but it should not be seen as a bad thing. It's something that their job is to listen and for you to share and open up and tell things that you typically would not tell in public. And that's important to say that it's okay, it's actually normal. Those things are normal.

And I think that's one of the great things is that you're coming out and ensuring it to show that people live with this and it is a normal thing and we should not try to hide it or to put it in a closet and forget about it, that we have the share and that many people, I think what you're saying is that other people have maybe different things that they're dealing with and they shouldn't be afraid to bottle up. And they're seeing you as an opportunity to talk to and listen because able to open up as well.

Klaus Agnoletti:

Yeah, people tend to ask me whether they should get a diagnosis or not and all of that. And what I used to say about that is that if you have a problem, then get diagnosis because once you get that stamp, it can be taken away. So it's not always a good stamp to have. So think twice before getting it. That's what I usually say.

Joseph Carson:

Because some things can change, some of the things you can do as well.

Klaus Agnoletti:

Yeah, for instance, I have a health insurance that I did before I got diagnosed and I'm doing what I can to keep hold of it because I probably can't get it again.

Joseph Carson:

That's another thing is yeah, some activities, health insurance, there's a lot of things that it becomes a challenge.

Klaus Agnoletti:

But yeah, it's strange because there's a lot of people who have come to me after the talk just in general saying that it's so good of you to be open about it and they're really admiring me being so open. But maybe it is also about what you think is something that's hard to talk about. For some reason, I don't feel it's that big a deal, honestly. But again, it's good to talk about and being a role model, I'm the one that, well, if people see me as a role model, I'm the one talking about it first because one of my messages in the talk is also that people should start talking about it and also to employers that it should be okay to talk to your employer about not necessarily ADHD. But as I said, with the traits in IT and IT security, there are a lot of people in IT and IT security that are not like people most, and they oftentimes have different needs in different ways.

Maybe some of them just really, really hate being in the office and maybe some of them just... Maybe their brain only works at night and that's where they want to work and all that. And really as an employer, you only thing of one thing. You have one thing in mind, or at least a couple of things in mind. And that is whether the employees performs like they should. They do what they're supposed to do at the exact time, at the time in the right quality and literally anything but that you shouldn't care about where they work, how they work, when they work, who cares.

Joseph Carson:

And that's one of the things were saying earlier about the types of work and when you work and how long you work in things, is that organizations, at the end, people are not robots. We don't just have one action and we have to make sure that we're finding out how to make sure that we're working around the body clock because our body clocks are not all the same. And to your point, for me, I work really well in the mornings, need a bit of a nap and a power nap during the day, and they work really well leaving.

So for me, basically I sometimes need to make sure that when I'm working that timeframe is the most optimum for what my brain is the most effective, and then also the environment around as well that I have to, I know the environment, which gets me into also reducing the distractions, being able to focus, how long I can focus on things. But you're absolutely right is that organizations, companies need to make sure that they don't treat everyone exactly the same expectations that we all have these different things that we have to deal with and they need to be flexible.

Klaus Agnoletti:

Yeah, exactly. They should be open to that because I read somewhere, I'm really bad at remembering numbers and details and all that, but when you have ADHD, there is a much higher chance of getting fired. And one of the things that helps ADHDers as the most is the flexibility when and where to work.

Joseph Carson:

And sometimes it's finding the right role for those people as well because it means that not all roles should be doing the same. Different people benefit in certain areas or different parts of the industry. So it's finding, making sure that the role that is suited to their ability and is also massed property.

Klaus Agnoletti:

And as an employer, you have an interest in not firing people. So if you can invite people to be more open about what the needs are, then you can avoid it, which is good financially. And also for the person, it is another bad thing in their career they don't need.

Joseph Carson:

So for the audience, one of the things that, just to summarize, what would be some of the things you'd recommend to the audience to, if they're finding themselves something, they need to talk to someone even or that they think they might have a similar situation, is there any resources or any places you would point them to that would be able to help them them?

Klaus Agnoletti:

I talk about what it has meant for me and in a way that one of the things I found very hard after being diagnosed was that the explanation, but it's an explanation, but is it an excuse. Yeah, I have this challenge, but does it mean that that is just the way it always happened with me? Or can I do something of my own to where to mitigate that? So what I used to say is that people should get to know each other. And I know that's not unique for new diversity. That's the same thing as you talked about before. It comes with the gray beard, I guess.

And the more about yourself, the better you can mitigate and the more you can tell people upfront what your needs are and what you don't like and what you do. And we are northerners. I know it's the same thing in Ireland. You just say things like they are because you don't really care about our dollar shrink recording bullshit man, I'm too old for shit like that. Just being frank about what you need and what you don't need in your life. And then it's easier to cope and it is also easier for other people to live with.

Joseph Carson:

Absolutely.

Klaus Agnoletti:

My wife doesn't have a diagnosis, but what I really, really love about her is that she's very own. She says exactly what's on her mind. If she's happy, I know. If she's sad, she's angry, I know. She's never passive-aggressive. She's very, very easy in that way. And I know a lot of men and other women of course are not that lucky, but just prove my point, being frank about what you can and what you can't do.

Joseph Carson:

And I think it's sometimes just being honest to yourself as well, because what you're doing-

Klaus Agnoletti:

It starts with yourself.

Joseph Carson:

So you're making... You're focusing on yourself before, because that's the most important thing is that once you know your capabilities and know your limitations, you can set the framework for that.

Klaus Agnoletti:

And that's exactly also why I became a freelancer because you asked before what impact it has had on my career. And it had some impact in the sense that I tried to change my career into something that was less concentration heavy. So I went from doing normal security advisory into doing marketing, which first to me was a little bit of a, I wouldn't say a slap in the face, but it was a little bit of surprise to see yourself first as a taggy and then as a marketing person. Because the way most people infosec see marketers is that they do annoying things, but what we do, but pointed towards the community, that's also marketing, but it brings value to people and it's not annoying. It's actually helpful.

Joseph Carson:

Absolutely. I think it's also-

Klaus Agnoletti:

To do that more.

Joseph Carson:

I think it's also important to have technical people in marketing. It's a critical role because-

Klaus Agnoletti:

We will bridge this. We may enjoy the marketers understand what the hell we are doing here.

Joseph Carson:

What's the need, what's the use case? Why is it important, what it is and what it is not.

Klaus Agnoletti:

And then after going into marketing, I thought things was great. And then my also clever wife said that, well, as I said, I had some problems with keeping a job and she, she's always been fearing to get fired again and again. And she was pretty sure that would happen again, even after me changing into marketing. And of course she was right. Then after that she was saying that, "Well, you have ADHD, you say you have ADHD, you say that your brain is different, then you also have to do something different. Because if you keep on doing the same thing, guess what? The same thing will happen."

Joseph Carson:

You're going to have the same results.

Klaus Agnoletti:

So she was the one suggesting that I went freelance. I hadn't thought of that myself, but it makes perfect sense because then I can be so selective what I want to do and what I don't want to do, and I can follow my interest.

Joseph Carson:

Correct. You follow what you want to do.

Klaus Agnoletti:

I've always been into using games as a way of training things. So right now, one of the things I'm pushing is doing instant response training as a role playing game because guess what? It's damn fun. And the unlike some tabletops that are just dull. So I was figuring, well, if you have to do it anyway because of these two compliance or whatever, then why not do it fun?

Joseph Carson:

Absolutely. Fantastic. Many thanks for coming on and sharing your story. I think it's really important, and I think it's lifting the ability that it's okay not to be like everyone else, and it's okay to share. And it's important to make sure that we also are true to ourselves and make sure that we know what is the best things for ourselves and how to sometimes change our lifestyles in order to be more optimum and be better. So again, many thanks for coming on. It's great. And also great chatting with you as always.

Klaus Agnoletti:

Can I just have a final thing I want to say? Because there are so many things I want to have said about what ADHD is and that isn't, but the talk I did at BSides Dublin in May was recorded and it's on their YouTube.

Joseph Carson:

Oh, fantastic.

Klaus Agnoletti:

And also I'm going to Wild West Hacking fest in the US and doing the talk for the first time in the US in mid-October. And I'm really looking forward to that as well.

Joseph Carson:

Fantastic. We'll definitely make sure, one of the things we'll make sure in the show notes is that we'll put the link to the, BSides Dublin, and we'll also make sure that the link to the talk in the Wild Hacking fest, which is also so many great people going there.

Klaus Agnoletti:

Exactly. Last year when I was working for another company, I did a talk there and I really wanted to go, but my boss wouldn't let me. I even had a coffee date with Dave Kennedy.

Joseph Carson:

Dave's amazing.

Klaus Agnoletti:

Yeah, I really look forward to meeting him.

Joseph Carson:

He's been a guest on the show previously and he's always, yeah, he's always amazing to talk to him. Great friends, huge mentor, and always doing great things.

Klaus Agnoletti:

And a good kindhearted person. And that's cool.

Joseph Carson:

He's always going to my home. He's always going to Belfast. So he's got a big, was it passion for Dollar in cars for Back to Future.

Klaus Agnoletti:

Oh, yeah.

Joseph Carson:

And I grew up right next to the factory.

Klaus Agnoletti:

Yeah. Did you see that he tweeted recently that he got a speeding ticket?

Joseph Carson:

No, I didn't. No, I have not. I have the check and see later.

Klaus Agnoletti:

Check the photo. Also, what he made the officer write.

Joseph Carson:

Yes, I did see that. Yes, I did see, that was actually quite funny. Absolutely. But Klaus, it's been fantastic having on and many thanks again, and we'll make sure that some of the details are on the show notes. And so for the audience, definitely if you feel, find someone to reach out to, find someone to talk to, it's always better to make sure that you're able to, and even if you're on the other side, be a listener, be somebody who can be a mentor, or be someone who can share their experiences and share some things they're going through because it's always better to share and don't keep it in.

Klaus Agnoletti:

Yeah. Be a role model.

Joseph Carson:

Absolutely. Absolutely. So again, this is the 401 Access Denied Podcast. I'm the host Joe Carson, and again, we have episodes every two weeks. We have amazing guests, interesting topics, and we're really looking to share as much knowledge out there to really make the world a safer place and make it a place that everyone can participate and ensure their wisdom and knowledge with. So take care, stay safe, and all the best.