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    401 Access Denied
    Episode 45

    Establishing Multinational Cyber Partners in NATO CCDCOE with Jaak Tarien

    EPISODE SUMMARY

    Joseph Carson is joined by Jaak Tarien, Director at NATO Cooperative Cyber Defence Centre of Excellence in Estonia. He shares the purpose behind NATO CCD COE of improving cyber defense interoperability by conducting research, training special forces, and providing expertise to its global members. Joe and Jaak discuss attribution and accountability for cyberattacks and talk strategy for offensive cyber teams. Learn more at https://ccdcoe.org/

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    Joseph Carson:
    Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of 401 Access Denied, your biweekly podcast that brings you the latest trends in news all about cyber security to help get you educated and up to date. My name is Joseph Carson, I'm your host of the episode. I'm the Chief Security Scientist and Advisory CISO here at ThycoticCentrify, and it's a pleasure to be here with you. I have a very special guest on the show today, and I'm welcomed with Jaak. So Jaak, do you want to give us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

    Jaak Tarien:
    Sure, Joe. Thanks for the invite. Well, I'm Colonel Jaak Tarien. I'm an active duty Estonian Air Force service member. For the last three years, I've had the privilege to serve as the director of NATO Cooperative Cyber Defence Centre of Excellence, or CCDCOE, a wonderful military acronym. The center is based out of Tallinn, Estonia. The center is naturally several years older than I have served there. It was really started as a national center in Estonia in 2003. In 2004, Estonia proposed to NATO allies to have an international center. And it took a few years to really catch on but after the 2007 Russian attacks on Estonia, nations realized the importance of cyber security to their alliance. And by now, the CCDCOE has grown to be the largest of the NATO, I think there are now 28 accredited centers of excellence. So CCDCOE is largest by the number of countries joined and the number of members as well. I already went into topic now, so I hope I didn't ruin your plan, but anything else you want to know about me?

    Joseph Carson:
    No problem. Absolutely. That's exactly... For the audience, it's great to have Jaak on and to provide this. The theme for today's episode is really to give a good understanding... A lot of people's probably heard of the NATO Cyber Defence Corporate Centre of Excellence but, really, I don't think many people really kind of get an understanding about what it does and what its value is.

    Joseph Carson:
    So Jaak, I mean, absolutely, I remember going back to even being based in Estonia during 2007 and during the basically, there's a cyber war that was happening and attack. For me, what really made it clear at that time was that no country can operate alone in cyber. It really means cooperation. It means working together. It means transparency. It means multiple countries and nations coming together to really provide a deterrence and provide less places for cyber criminals to be operating from and be successful. So what the Cyber Defence Centre of Excellence is fantastic and it's really kind of provide the audience an education. So just kind of provide us a little bit more, what types of services does it provide? What types of capabilities and value does it get out there?

    Jaak Tarien:
    Yeah, there are a lot of myths and legends there. And even if I now tell everything that we do, there's probably going to be people who don't believe me. There's people who think that we are the offensive NATO cyber arm, and we create the cyber missiles to be launched. Well, all the 28 centers of excellence in NATO... We do not belong to the NATO operational chain of command. We do not get NATO common funding. We are accredited by NATO, but for other independent think tanks. So three pillars: research, training, exercises; that's what we do. Small agile organization, flexible, low bureaucracy, not officially affiliated with NATO. Thus, we always need to give a disclaimer that anything that we say is not part of NATO official position. Thus, we have academic freedom to talk about subjects that are not really commonly accepted by NATO nations already.

    Jaak Tarien:
    I can give several examples how our center has been on a forward edge of cyber thinking. In 2007, when Estonia was attacked by Russia, our high officials in NATO HQ went to their colleagues and said, "Estonia is under attack." And their counterparts literally would switch on CNN and BBC and say, "Well, I can't see tanks and airplane. What do you mean you're under attack?" The concept of cyber attack being associated with a breach of sovereignty and potentially could result in a NATO collective response by Article 5, it was not there. The center, as soon as it became international in 2008, started doing research on legal and strategic topics. How are the cyber attacks and sovereignty and the NATO collective response related? And only NATO reached 2014 summit on census and summit declaration that cyber attack can be constituted as a breach of sovereignty and can result in a collective response.

    Jaak Tarien:
    Currently, well, I can't think of a topic right now that... We need to come up with something new, provocative, because NATO has really gathered speed in cyber. Just a few years back our exercise crosswords on offensive cyber training, offensive cyber skills, we couldn't call it offensive cyber exercise because some of our member nations were not comfortable with being associated with offensive cyber. So we called it Red Teaming, penetration testing, and all the nations participated eagerly because they wanted to be trained, but they just didn't want to be associated. So two and a half years ago, I think it was the first time, when all the major member nations had made policy statements that, yes, we do this offensive cyber as well when needed. So then we started calling crosswords offensive cyber exercise and it's fine. Few years back, when the 5G and Huawei trap was a American topic and-

    Joseph Carson:
    Absolutely. National security issue.

    Jaak Tarien:
    Europeans didn't really want to touch it. It was a hot potato. We ran just a kind of a summary paper that summarized the debate and the threats, dangers. And it was very, very attention getting paper. Even Huawei, themselves, contacted us and said, "Can we pay you visit and explain our positions?" We kind of declined. We didn't want to be used for their PR purposes, but now we have several 5G research projects on our agenda.

    Joseph Carson:
    Was that in conjunction with the one that was done in the UK or was that independent, separately? Because I know the UK may have because of Huawei's depth and, let's say, where they were going to be used in the UK's core 5G networks and edge networks. UK did their own kind of Huawei investigation that they really...

    Jaak Tarien:
    Oh, yeah. It must be their own. Yeah.

    Joseph Carson:
    It was their own. Okay.

    Jaak Tarien:
    We're not focusing on any particular nation or any... We don't have a Huawei device here that we're trying to find the smoking gun on. We're under a small organization. We are just over 70 people. Out of that, about 20 are technical experts. The rest are strategy, law, operations, education, training, et cetera. So we do not usually create any new code, any new hardware. We rather do research on what's out there in the world. We study operational aspects of cyber. We teach many courses. We study strategic aspects of cyber and quite a strong arm is our legal arm. So one of our flagship projects, for example, is the Tallinn Manual. It's an ongoing study. Oh God, is it time to go there now?

    Joseph Carson:
    Yeah. Let's go into the Tallinn Manual because I remember I kind of had to be careful about what I say. Because I did provide some kind of contribution to it, but my preference was to remain anonymous at the time. And I really think Brad Smith, when he came out, he's the president Microsoft at the time, he still is, came out and really kind of indicated about the need for a Geneva Convention style, and the Tallinn papers was kind of following up. So I think now is a good time to cover the Tallinn papers because I think it's a really important part; that we need to have a more kind of global legal framework, and that is about what's the right approaches, especially when we get into cyber wars.

    Jaak Tarien:
    Yeah. Has Brad been out? I remember it was pre-pandemic, so it must have been 2018, 19 when it goes out. Was that one and only? The same time you were talking about?

    Joseph Carson:
    Yeah. So I think he was probably previously here before, but it was the pre-pandemic time. It was around 2017. I literally just walked past him at the airport when he was arriving. I was leaving when he was arriving at the time.

    Jaak Tarien:
    Yeah. He came by the center. Yeah. Yeah. We had a good discussion. I remember that. So I want to say 2019, but, okay. The Tallinn Manual doesn't want to be, and cannot be, the equivalent of a Geneva Convention. However, the Tallinn Manual studies all the existing international law that regulates human conflict in any domain and applies it to cyber domain. So it's a academic study on international law, how it applies in the cyber domain. Now, in the early two thousands, and still to some point the likes of Russia and China and Iran they maintained that cyberspace is the new wild west and no rule applies there, and they try to appear really goodwilling and let's start negotiating new rules. Well, the rest of the world has maintained that there are rules, but before Tallinn Manual, there really was no big consensus building set of rules.

    Jaak Tarien:
    Tallinn Manual, as I said is an academic study. It's not NATO policy. It's not any nation's policy. It's an academic study, how the likes of the, not the digital Geneva Convention that doesn't exist, but the real Geneva Convention, how that applies in a cyber domain. And it studies really many, many aspects that espionage and then, well, you name it, sovereignty, all those things there are...

    Jaak Tarien:
    It's really important that we revisit how we look at cyber attacks and don't separate them from the physical attacks as much as we tend to do. I give one example. If nation A sends an aircraft that drops bombs on a hospital in nation B and people die, then we immediately cry out war on crimes, right? You cannot attack a hospital. But if the same nation A, launches a cyber attack and the same hospital in nation B loses power or loses medical records, and same number of people die. Somehow, it is in our minds that we don't think immediately of war crimes. Well, the building is intact, there is no smoke, just some computers were out of whack, and it's a different thing, right? Well, it's not. It's the same kind of attack with the same kind of impact, people dies. So it is important that we get our heads right; that cyber attack is domain of operations. Like in 2016.

    Joseph Carson:
    Absolutely. It's a delivery mechanism. We look at no matter what the kinetic result might be and the impact is equivalent to that of a physical attack. It's just a delivery mechanism that has been evolved in recent years. And, absolutely, it should not be seen as any different, especially when the impact is the same.

    Jaak Tarien:
    Yep. And we just launched this year, the follow up of Tallinn Manual, the 3.0 revision process. We're looking to publish several years down the road, but our nations asked to run a new study. Which was interesting, when I came to the job in 2018, the Tallinn Manual 2.0 had just finished in 2017, and I asked the law branch, when is the time for next? And they said, "Well, it's several years away. There is not enough new material." But the field is developing so rapidly that now the nation said that, well, our member nations said that first, there is plenty of evolving state practice. State has applied the law. States have made policy statements that now that the field is different and it is rapidly changing. So we launched a new study. Probably in the next four years, we'll rewrite it a couple of times as the things are changing. And as soon as we publish a paper book, it'll outdated in a couple of months. Well, maybe a year that there will be new material out there, but sometimes the process and the discussions are more important than the results.

    Joseph Carson:
    Absolutely. Yeah. It's the activity.

    Jaak Tarien:
    Yeah, exactly. The 3.0 is coming, but currently-

    Joseph Carson:
    I'm going to be interested in seeing. Because I think that's probably the big... For me, having a much more international cooperation around cyberspace in general and what's the legal boundaries, I think it's really important. Because we really need to come to a collaboration around that. It's really, kind of from a legal aspect, I think that's where we can do the most effective measures. The less places that cyber criminals and nation states have the freedom to operate and those mechanisms, the more we kind of push them into places where it's more difficult to operate, I think the safer the world will be. But right now there's a lot of countries there's just providing safe havens, especially for cyber mercenaries who wear both hats. Sometimes they'll do something for a nation state, a malicious activity, and then they'll carry it ransomware for financial gain. We have to be sure that there's less places for those operations to occur.

    Jaak Tarien:
    Very true, but it's quite optimistic view that we're going to change it in a short term future with establishing rules. The rules of physical space have been agreed by the nations long, long time, yet Russia is waging quite open warfare in Eastern Ukraine. And, well, the Ukrainians can display any sort of proof. I mean, I remember the Ukrainian President demonstrating the physical passports confiscated from Russian troops in the Ukrainian territory and president Putin insist, "Well, they were on vacation." So, if you are under that level of deniability that: I don't care, those guys were on vacation and they bought their equipment in the military surplus stores. Then in the cyber world, it's almost impossible to make Russia admit anything.

    Joseph Carson:
    Yeah. Attribution, accountability, is two of our most difficult things.

    Jaak Tarien:
    But attribution is for our own public. That we stand up and we say that, wrong is wrong and they did it. But we cannot expect just that attribution to change their behavior, unfortunately. There's no shame there.

    Joseph Carson:
    So, kind of moving, one of the things I'd like to know as well is kind of what makes up the CCDCOE? Who participates? Is it just the member nations? Is it also private and public parts? How is the involvement? What makes up the cooperation members?

    Jaak Tarien:
    Yeah, well, the official members, the signing of the memorandum of understanding are the member nations. All NATO member nations have a fairly automatic and easy process in, they just need to apply and join and start manning and start contributing to the budget. On a consensus based vote, we can also accept outside of NATO nations, and we already have. Let me think now, outside of NATO, we have members-

    Joseph Carson:
    Ireland is one.

    Jaak Tarien:
    Important partner nations are Finland, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland. And in a joining process, there are Ireland, Korea, Japan, and Australia. So as you can see, we're going out of that common Euro-Atlantic area and it's very, very great benefit for us that we get that perspective from the Asia Pacific region, as well, as we are connected.

    Jaak Tarien:
    Now, you had a very good question. What about academia and private industry? Official members are the nations, but we do have cooperation agreements and partnership, different shapes and forms, with private sector and with academia. Our local partner TeleTech University, great partner, we have a long term common partnership on many projects. We've had several projects with Kings College, London, William and Mary in U.S., a few more that I... Army Cyber Institute out at West Point, few others. Private companies, mostly it revolves around our technical exercises. If we go now into the Locked Shields, the listeners can go to YouTube and Google up Lock Shields. You get several years of videos that we made of Locked Shields, but Locked Shields has grown to be the largest live-fire cyber exercise in the world. And what makes it special that in addition to the NATO cyber range and common computer networks that are targets to be attacked and defended on the cyber range, we have built a digital nation with really national critical infrastructure elements that are as realistic as possible.

    Jaak Tarien:
    Partners like Siemens have brought us the digital power grid elements, the power distribution, the real hardware and software, Ericsson GSM sats, Bitium tactical walkie talkies. Some startups. Estonian startup, Spaceit brought their satellite uplink. And we're trying to get military industry involved as well. They've been very, very shy about bringing their products to be hacked, as they see it. But good example is, is there anything more sensitive than power distribution this day in era? And if Siemens digital grid brings their power distribution and finds benefit then it, both reputation wise and product development wise, I think it is a good example that the big names of the military industry should bring their products to Locked Shields as well. And I keep working on it, but it's been tough.

    Joseph Carson:
    I think it's important to be proactive about these because otherwise the last thing you want to be doing is getting disclosures and finding risks after it's already been deployed. So you want to do this as early as possible. I attended a lot of events and we do a lot of working a lot of vulnerability, disclosure types of activities. And the earlier you get into the practical side of things, the more you find out about what using it in these live simulations, I think it's important. Because, therefore, you can reduce the costs of those much later down the line, and being involved in those, I think, is so critical.

    Jaak Tarien:
    Yep. So that was the partnerships. Some organizational partnerships, let me think now, European Defence Agency, they are looking ways to partner on educational and training. The same with NCIA Academy, the new organization there. So there is a lot to be done in cyber education and training. So, that's a big fair of what we do. We teach about 20 courses. Well, it used to be here in Tallinn. Now in the pandemic era, we've pushed them online. I'm not talking e-learning. We have e-learning program as well and there is about 10 courses there, but it's still live teaching, but live online.

    Joseph Carson:
    Online instructor-led workshops.

    Jaak Tarien:
    Exactly. Yeah. In some aspects it's works better than e-learning. E-learning is a good preparatory tool to kind of level the preexisting knowledge in the students. There are some recommended and mandatory courses on e-learning before coming to our courses. But our courses range from strategic level, we call it Executive Cyber Seminar. That's the shortest course. It's two days for military one star and up it's equivalent, kind of a exclusive led conversation, led by experts. And that's the course we haven't taken online that's taught here in Tallinn in small groups. And then there is operational level courses. Operational cyber threat intel and operational planning of cyber aspects and combat critical infrastructure. Gosh, I can't remember the official name now of the course, but critical infrastructure protection course. And then several technical courses taught on a cyber range.

    Joseph Carson:
    Yeah. Let's kind of go in a little bit more details in Locked Shields because I always think it's amazing. I usually get to... Sometimes I'm traveling at the time so I don't get to participate or see it, but for me, it's always fascinating to hear the stories and some of the scenarios. I think this year it was an island and previous years it was a power station. Can you give us some examples of the scenarios that's been played out? And also there's always this kind of the top five, or the countries who's really leading to be the leaders. Because it's very competitive as well, as I believe, in regards to the scoring system for the countries.

    Jaak Tarien:
    Let's go scenario first. It has been the island of Berillya that rises from the middle of Atlantic every April and gets cyber attacked. We don't tweak too much with the scenario because it needs to be politically neutral with our just being a public exercise and so many nations participating. And we built 24 districts of Beryllia; 24 with the purpose of having 24 teams having fairly identical set of targets that one professional Red Team starts attacking. And we place the systems in Beryllia that our industrial partners bring for us.

    Jaak Tarien:
    And some systems are so complex that you really need multi-year projects. They get upgraded each year, software and hardware wise. Siemens is the prime example. The Siemens digital grid. Really, we get upgrades every year. We have a long term really good partnership with them. Their technicians help us to set it up. So the power grid aspect is the strongest, the most high tech aspects of Locked Shields. But then there is, as I mentioned before, the communications aspect, stratcom, strategic communication networks, GSM and tactical communications. This year, we had the first military company, Brazilian Avibras, brought their Air C2 software, which was the really good air defense command control software of Beryllia was target of cyber attacks. So our Singapore partner is bring water purification setups. So they have a very, very impressive, big industrial sized water purification lab in Singapore. And they bring the miniaturized 24 kits with software to us for Locked Shields to be used as the Beryllia water purification plants.

    Jaak Tarien:
    And scenario, there is a unfriendly nation, I can't even remember its name. Maybe it doesn't have a name. I think it does, ... Crimsonia, wherever that came from. It's been forever. Crimsonia. And they start pressurizing, threatening and at some point there's been physical attacks. Oh, you know what? I don't think in Locked Shields in a scenario there's been physical attacks on Beryllia by Crimsonia, but we're using the same scenario for a offensive cyber exercise, crosswords.

    Joseph Carson:
    Crosswords. Okay.

    Jaak Tarien:
    That's where things get physical as well. Because in crosswords, in addition to the offensive cyber, we mix in special forces that actually do kinetic action. So that's an exciting exercise as well. But let's try to finish up on Locked Shields. Do you have anything else I should talk about? Lead me in.

    Joseph Carson:
    Yeah. Usually there's a scoreboard. It's in April. It lasts, what, five days or so, or is it a couple days in-

    Jaak Tarien:
    The hot phase is two days.

    Joseph Carson:
    Two days, okay.

    Jaak Tarien:
    For us, it's a year-long project. And the setup lasts in a hotel for five days. The first day for the nations is familiarization with the networks, so they frantically look for the security holes and then to patch them. And then there is two days, when the attacks go on and then there is index and hot wash up days, or the feedback days.

    Jaak Tarien:
    The competitive aspect. Well, it's not meant to be a competition. We run it as an exercise for the nations to test, experiment, learn, fail. Fail in the exercise. However, if you award feedback points to human beings, they get competitive. By popular demands, we have a winner trophy of Locked Shields. We've had long debates how do we handle it? Because we don't want nation to play to win. At least not all of them. That we want nations to be okay to experiment and come in last, but learn the most. So how we struck a compromise is that only the top three places are publicly announced. So that the winner in the second place, the third place, they get the public fame. To rest 21 teams, they find out their score. They find out where they lacked and where they excelled. They find out where they placed out of 24 teams, but no one else does. So it's anonymous. So we want it to be the platform for learning. So sometimes the dead last team that experimented something new, they learned the most. And that's the best place to learn and fail, is in the exercise.

    Joseph Carson:
    I think that's a good balance. It's always a challenge when you want it to be educational and you want it to be a lessons learned. It's always trying to find a fine balance between those. So I think what you've mentioned sounds like a firm method for balance between those. The other thing, so you mentioned a bit about cross shields. Cross shields, it's October, November? I went...

    Jaak Tarien:
    Yeah. Crosswords used to be-

    Joseph Carson:
    Crosswords. Crosswords. Yeah.

    Jaak Tarien:
    It used to be January, but we found it's too tight, too close together for Locked Shields, which is in April. So now for the last two years, we've had it in December. So actually it's coming up in two or three weeks now, the seventh and eighth December. Yep. So this is much, much smaller due to the nature. Kind of a boutique experimental exercise, which has grown sizeably as well, but it kind of scale just like Locked Shields has scaled. It used to be solely offensive cyber. Since three years back, now there is a military command element and special forces and military police kinetic element. It involves many international partners, different nations, special forces, the NATO Special Operations School house, some nations, military police. And then, still the primary training audience is the offensive cyber team that is comprised of students and from our member nations.

    Joseph Carson:
    I think it's really important is countries need to... I was always kind of a bit on the fence about defensive side of things and it can always be a tricky situation. But it seems to be, right now, is the best deterrent. And countries need to be able to defend by being able to taking down the things that so they can't attack you. So it's really important to make sure that you defend as far as possible. So offensive, a lot of are investing in this area significantly. So it's great to see the activities and the lessons learned from these events.

    Jaak Tarien:
    I compare it to boxing. As a cadet at the U.S. Air Force Academy, I had to take boxing and I wasn't good at it, but I liked it. So I even picked it as an intramural sport. I mostly lost, but initially I thought that I need to get really good at defensive. I'm going to block every punch coming at me. But if you let the other guys just whale at you with not being scared to be punched back, initially you can block their punches, but they're going to get through. So you need to strike back. That's the way it is.

    Joseph Carson:
    Absolutely. We just had recently JC Vega on who basically did the Academy at West Point and also was explaining about the importance of why at West Point they do boxing as an important kind of... To show what it's like to be hit, but also the ability to defend, basically, by attacking. So it was kind of really interesting. We were talking about the importance of simulations during that episode. So it was great to have that input.

    Jaak Tarien:
    Yeah. Great. I've heard that it's gotten soft now, as you know, that world is getting soft. So boxing is optional. It's sad. But I went back for my 20th reunion, 2018, and I walked to the athletic gym and I saw that the old writing on a wall was still there. It said, "Tough times don't last. Tough people do." I remember it to this day. So my boxing class in 1994, I think.

    Joseph Carson:
    Oh, okay. I used to go. My family was based in West Point. So a lot of my vacations was spent there. It was amazing place. I really enjoyed it. So, on base. So it's definitely a really... The talent and people that comes out of West Point is impressive. So it's always was great to see that.

    Joseph Carson:
    One of the things I've got question, as well around is every year there's also the major event, which is CyCon. And of course the last couple of years this went digital. And usually, I remember as well, there's also the U.S, there's a CyCon U.S. and DC as well. Can you tell us a little bit about CyCon, the event itself and what it does?

    Jaak Tarien:
    Yeah. Well, let's start with the bad news that the CyCon U.S is no more. The Army Cyber Institute that was our partner for organizing CyCon U.S., due to the pandemic they skipped two years and they said they going to devote the resources, direct the resources somewhere else, that it's hard. In Washington DC, there are so many conferences, it was hard to attract audiences, that they said it's not worth the effort. So, in the foreseeable future no CyCon U.S., but CyCon in Estonia and Tallinn is still live and well. And I'm crossing fingers, I'm hoping that from 1st of June to 3rd of June, this coming 2022, we can have a physical conference. Because CyCon is known, yes, for its highly prepared panels where people have written research papers that have been double blind reviewed and then selected. And then the very high level, good mix of keynotes by the political, military and industry and academic leaders. But the CyCon vibe is there in the group that meets. It's also a good mix of government, military, industry, academia.

    Jaak Tarien:
    We never tried to be the biggest conference in the world. We shoot at about 700 people, that's max. We don't want to go bigger. But we try to have really relaxing, fun conference side events. Like the last physical CyCon in 2019, my support crew persuaded me that it's a good idea to have the conference dinner at indoor beach and in shorts and in beach gear. Yeah. It was an indoor volleyball pit, really large one with three courts. And I was like, "Okay. You've done good events before, so I trust you. Let's go." And it was great. You see those high level leaders in shorts and then Hawaiian shirts and T-shirts there drinking beer and then talking to each other, and it worked great. And that's really the cyber cooperation where connections made and things happen. So you can't do that in an online conference. So-

    Joseph Carson:
    Absolutely.

    Jaak Tarien:
    Two years.

    Joseph Carson:
    Yeah. I even agree. It's very difficult. I'm a frequent speaker conferences all over the world and in the past 18 months or so that interactive feedback, the networking piece is very much it's an avoid and you can't replace those in digital events. It's very, very difficult. No matter how well organizations have tried, it's very difficult to replace that networking portion. And that's where a lot of the real conversations, that's where the lessons learned, that's where some of the innovations occur. So it's really important. I think many will look to go back to in-person when possible. So it's great to hear that. I mean, I thought CyCon this year was fantastic, especially moving to digital. From previous years, I thought that conversion was really fantastically executed. But it's great to see it going back to also including the in-person, because I think that networking, that feedback, the in-person side of things, you can't replace it with a digital aspect.

    Jaak Tarien:
    Yeah. Well, I can't promise you that under the rules in place in Estonia on 1st of May 2022, we can do it. By the rules in place today, if everybody's vaccinated, I think we could. And looks like Estonia has turned the corner, so the numbers are slowly coming back down. So I crossing fingers, hope everything's going well, that by spring time we're low numbers and the normal life is back. We'll see.

    Joseph Carson:
    Absolutely. We can all keep our hopes up. And definitely, I've in the last couple of weeks, I've been finding getting back into in-person meds... So it's been within the EU so far. And the turnout has been fantastic and it's been great to get those connections back again and working with peers and... So definitely, I think slowly, but surely has things opened up and the higher vaccination rates will definitely allow countries to open up more freely. So I'm looking forward to that.

    Jaak Tarien:
    Absolutely. Anything else you want to know about what we do?

    Joseph Carson:
    No, I think we've covered a lot of the areas that I wanted to go through. And, Jaak, it's been fantastic having you on. A lot of people, when I'm talking, I always refer to the NATO Center of Defence and Corporate Center of Excellence. I always get that acronym is always difficult to say, so CCDCOE. But I'm always talking about it and a lot of people they've heard, but I think it's really important for them to really understand the value and that it provides and the service that we're getting from it globally. I think it's doing fantastic. And I just want to make sure that our audience, it's across the world, we've got a lot of audience in North America, and I think really getting the insights and knowing what the center does is very valuable. And hopefully we'll see a lot more cooperation and to working together in the months and years that come. So, Jaak, it's been a pleasure. Is there anything you would like to share with the audience before we kind of wrap up today's episode?

    Jaak Tarien:
    Well, everybody get vaccinated and still stay safe and check our websites, ccdcoe.org for any news and participate in our events. So it's great to serve the cyber community.

    Joseph Carson:
    Absolutely. We'll make sure that in our show notes as well, we'll add links to the Tallinn Manual. Maybe see if we can get a couple of the public available videos of Locked Shields, and we'll definitely put the links to the center itself.

    Joseph Carson:
    So, Jaak, it's been a pleasure having on this show. Stay safe, hopefully all as well. And for the audience out there, and stay safe, definitely do get vaccinated so we can get back to a normal world again where we can go and shake hands and talk to each other. So many thanks. Stay safe. This is 401 Access Denied. I'm your host of the episode, Joe Carson. Join us every two weeks for the podcast, and thank you.